Which would you believe in more?

[yash3ahuja]

^INDEED

[Fober-dud]

nexsusx said:

@ oracle unfortunately it is not the word of god but the interpretation of gods word people tend to forget the fact that "GOD", not only in judeao Christan religions but in many others, is a perfect being he would not have the need of language or even if he did have it we only understand the word in English( or what ever language that bible is written in) which means things "could be lost in translation" when the bible is reprinted retranslated ( which has been done many times over the life times of kings, presidents, dictators etc etc.)

[DISCLAIMER] No offense to NexsusX or anyone if I sound pointed, mean, or condescending. I hate it when people try to make me look stupid in discussion; I think it's a coward's tactic and it is not my intent in this post to make anybody look stupid, but here are my thoughts:

@nexsus: If Odyssey was translated into English (which it has been, as far as I know), would you doubt that it was translated correctly? Re-translation CAN be a vehicle for mistranslation, but just because something has been re-translated doesn't mean it IS mistranslated (Also, the Jewish culture regarded highly the issue of passing down manuscripts to future generations so an argument can be made that they would've been extremely careful to translate correctly what they viewed to be as God's Word).

You're also speaking for God when you say He wouldn't have the need of language lol. As far as I can see, anyway.

@everyone: A Christian apologist would argue that God has given ample evidence of the Bible being His Word through such things as prophecies (e.g. in the Bible, God declares that Israel would be re-united at some point in the future), manuscript evidence, historical events and figures backing up the stories recorded in the Bible, the infallibility and consistency of the Bible, etc....

Also, the Bible has several prophecies written about Jesus pertaining to where He would be born, how He would die, that He would be raised up from the dead, how many coins Judas would sell Him out for, that He would be born of a virgin, etc.... And all of these prophecies were written a few centuries before He was born.

I do find myself questioning whether what I believe is true or not quite often though. And when I hear Christians making statements about issues it seems like there is a sense of thought that says "of course we're right" (other parties are guilty of this too), and it irks me (especially with Christians, because they claim to be new creatures with a new master, Jesus Christ) that they seem to feel like just because they were brought up in a Christian household, they ARE right. And it does push me away from those individuals to be honest, although I can't say that their motives were ever wrong in the whole affair. I think there just are people who are more simple than others, and in many ways I think that is a blessing. In no way do I think we should "look down" on them, we are given more, and therefore can do more, but we are in a sense "more dangerous", as we have more power to either do right, or wrong. But that is another issue.

I think that we just need to keep searching for Truth wherever it leads us, and in the end, if God really does have an exclusive hold on Ultimate Truth, then ultimately we'll be led to Him, and if He doesn't exist and Truth stands on its own two feet, then. . . we're right?

Then we die.

I actually don't know what the end of the road would be if we find Truth and God isn't behind it. It seems pointless.

[NexsusX (Fury)]

Im not trying to speak for god since it is suppoivly perfection (im going on the bases that if something is perfect it wouldnt need something like language which is imperfect) perfection cannot have imperfection

im not by anymeans trying to make you look stupid and im guessing you used othe account orcale to say your veiws without having to be seen as someone else by the people of these forums.

but i can agree that any form of text that is translated has room for misinterpritation and things are lost in translation ( but for a text like the bible which is supoposed to be the extension of god meaning the bible would be perfect too it cannot have "lost in translation" )for it would make it inperfect. but of course what am i saying im only human how can i interprit perfection if i havent experianced it

[Fober-dud]

nexsusx said:

Im not trying to speak for god since it is suppoivly perfection (im going on the bases that if something is perfect it wouldnt need something like language which is imperfect) perfection cannot have imperfection

But language has been around since before the Fall, and God pronounced His Creation "good". And after the Fall language did not become imperfect, its users merely became imperfect.

If God's Word is Truth, then it doesn't matter whether we call it by that name (thereby using the imperfect vehicle of language), or acknowledge its existence by means other than language; it's there and it doesn't need us to say it exists for it to be able to exist. We have no jurisdiction over it as physical beings.

In other words, God's Word (Truth) is "beyond" the physical realm and therefore cannot be corrupted by the physical realm, because the physical realm has no authority over it (Truth).

What I'm trying to say is that language is an "imperfect vehicle", but in the case of God's Word, it (language) is an imperfect vehicle carrying a perfect message. And according to the Bible, God is in the business of helping us imperfect people out by giving us His perfect Word. And I see no reason why He wouldn't protect His one Book jealously. If He does exist, He is Omnipotent, and therefore can protect his Book from any human error.

nexsusx said:

im not by anymeans trying to make you look stupid and im guessing you used othe account orcale to say your veiws without having to be seen as someone else by the people of these forums.

No, I have actually never heard of him before, but I do applaud him for sharing his views honestly.

My position, so far as I see it currently, is this: I would say that I do believe in God, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that I am (or at least try to be) a follower of Jesus Christs' teachings.

nexsusx said:

but i can agree that any form of text that is translated has room for misinterpritation and things are lost in translation ( but for a text like the bible which is supoposed to be the extension of god meaning the bible would be perfect too it cannot have "lost in translation" )for it would make it inperfect. but of course what am i saying im only human how can i interprit perfection if i havent experianced it

Yeah, I agree with you that translations of the Bible cannot be trusted as inerrant Truth if they have been mistranslated over the centuries.

There is a guy named Lee Strobel (I think that's how you say it) who apparently turned from being an atheist to a Christian after he took a long look at the historical evidence for the reliable passing down of original manuscripts of the Bible down to the translations we see today. For anybody who wants to know he's got a book and DVD titled "The Case for Christ" out documenting his search for truth coming from an atheists' standpoint, to ultimately changing his viewpoint to thinking that the Bible is God's Word by what he said was a mountain of evidence for the Bibles' inerrancy.

I would encourage people who view the Bible as innacurate to check out his defense of it and see whether they think it stands under the test of credulity. Also, I would welcome anyone who disagrees with me to state their position, and/or reference someone they believe can defend their position or simply lay out their case if they wish to take the time to do so.

Ultimately, this discussion is about the search for Truth, and we all need to be open-minded about the possibility of us being wrong in our belief structure at this current stage in our life.

[hanzrimer]

hey I'm back, and I still don't believe in god, what are we talking about now?

[NexsusX (Fury)]

Mar 5, 2010 5:12:08 GMT -5 Fober-dud said:

But language has been around since before the Fall, and God pronounced His Creation "good". And after the Fall language did not become imperfect, its users merely became imperfect.

My position, so far as I see it currently, is this: I would say that I do believe in God, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that I am (or at least try to be) a follower of Jesus Christs' teachings.

With what you said one can see the effect of imperfect people who have told you of god as "perfection". God is perfect so it can not be a man nor a woman for man and woman are imperfect ( god has no need to procreate for god is perfect that is if your under the belief that god is perfect) this also throws out all other human understand like the "good" which can be translated as human dualism/ a dialectic.
if you need evidence read "jenseits von gut und bose" by Fredrick Nietzsche (fyi translated as "Beyond Good and Evil")

Mar 5, 2010 5:12:08 GMT -5 Fober-dud said:

There is a guy named Lee Strobel (I think that's how you say it) who apparently turned from being an atheist to a Christian after he took a long look at the historical evidence for the reliable passing down of original manuscripts of the Bible down to the translations we see today. For anybody who wants to know he's got a book and DVD titled "The Case for Christ" out documenting his search for truth coming from an atheists' standpoint, to ultimately changing his viewpoint to thinking that the Bible is God's Word by what he said was a mountain of evidence for the Bibles' inerrancy.

I would encourage people who view the Bible as innacurate to check out his defense of it and see whether they think it stands under the test of credulity. Also, I would welcome anyone who disagrees with me to state their position, and/or reference someone they believe can defend their position or simply lay out their case if they wish to take the time to do so.

read "Meditations on First Philosophy" and "Discourse on Method" by Rene Descartes
there are segments in which he talks about not trusting anything that isn't based on mathematics ( the body decieves, and suppovily the only thing as humans we have to be as close as perfection as we can get is the ability to reason and think which is explained as self awarness) it also talks of even if you have a "mountain of evidence" if it doesnt prove what its trying to prove it can not be 100% ceirtan.

Mar 5, 2010 5:12:08 GMT -5 Fober-dud said:

Ultimately, this discussion is about the search for Truth, and we all need to be open-minded about the possibility of us being wrong in our belief structure at this current stage in our life.

wb hanz


also Descartes Reinforces the exsistance of a higher power namely god though he never mentions it being religious...
actually he does in one point when he talks about the sense causing sin which is catholic but its the only instance he does this for some reason or another.

[NexsusX (Fury)]

btw those works can be dense at times but i can only provide you with "Form Socrates to Sartre" by T.Z Lavine as a source of simpler understanding of what Descartes is talking about ( at times he is a bit puzzling)

[Taco]

Jesus was a real person in history. There is no debate about that. Even people who do not accept Jesus as God say he was a ''Good moral teacher''.

So we have 3 choices:

1. Jesus is Lord and who he said he was, and all his claims were true.

2.Jesus was a Liar, and knew the entire time his claims were false. He must have been an incredible actor lemme tell you. How then can he have been a Good Moral teacher? How is it that he has deceived the masses for over 2,000 years? Why would he die for a Lie? Tell me.

3. Jesus was a Lunatic. He did not know his claims were false, but actually believed it himself. He was insane, yet brilliant?

I think its clear what the only choice is.

If Jesus is who he says he is, shouldn't we take him seriously?
Isn't it easier to believe there is a divine Creator rather than this evolution bullshit?

How can this world, this planet called Earth and all its delicate organisms, be a fluke? How can something this incredible come from nothing? What are the odds? And where did the Big Bang come from?

That is the same as saying a hurricane can knock about some random chairs and tables and plates and silverware and cloths and tea and crumpets and have it end up looking like the Queens dining room. But where did it all come from?

If you believe that then you need to see a doctor.
Speaking of doctors, go to any Eye Doctor and ask him or her, Does God Exist??

I guarantee you he or she will say he or she does, because they know the eye and what a remarkable thing it is, and that such a thing cannot be a fluke, especially since there are two of them, perfectly spaced. You know how a cameras lens has to turn and stuff just to focus on an object? And it can only focus on a limited number of objects and it just takes really long? Your eye can focus on anything you want it to instantly and seamlessly.
Something like this cannot be a fluke.

There are no Atheists, only Anti-Theists.

[King of the Pink Mushrooms]

I beleive in god and jesus but not everything of the bible (another story)

At the end of the day no one can make you beleive somthing else. Sceince nor religion could ever prove each other wrong. Sceince can't contradict the idea of a almighty one creating us while religion can't realy disproof the idea of the big bang (where the big bang would probably be itself created from another reality where time does not exist so somthing to create itself is not needed).

But that is what beliving in somthing is you just go what you think is right.

I beleive in god becuase although god seems like somthing out of a fairytale so does every other dam thing I see. If I was something not from this world (dont get picky about what I'm supposed to be lol) and you told me this place would one day exist where objects could form to make a soul which in all its complexity can move other objects around by just sheer thought (objects being your body parts) along with all the other sheer beuty of the world and all this to happen from essetialy a exploding rock where bits fly everywhere that it would form the perfect enviroment for us to live in, I say perfect becuse you change one factor by such a small amount we could not exist and their being alot of factors like this, I would tell you you were a loony tick becuase this world could never exist outside of a dream.

Other than this as I say I just belive and that is what religion is.

[Taco]

christianity is not a religion, its a relationship with jesus christ. and it does prove evolution wrong.

the view that god does not exist is quite simply indefensable. all mankind knows at some point that there is a god, whether he or she chooses to admit it or not

[King of the Pink Mushrooms]

How you talk about religion is one of the reasons I don't call my self a christian even though I belive in jesus (but not the word of the bible).

Chrisitanity seems to lost have the humanity of it with several people. "The view that god does not exist is quite simply indefensable" is something which isnt true there is every chance god does not exist. Alot of people refuse the idea of god not exisiting but becuase there scared of dying. I belive in god not becuase I hid from arguments against it beucase I welcomed them and made my only rational desision without letting my fear of death being part of it.

The problem with christianity is I feel its more of a fear than a religion people dare not look away from the bible in case they get punished for it in the afterlife. Heck I walk past a church and there's a big sign saying some quote which generalised means join christanity or burn in hell mate. How is this beliving, its just clinging onto somthing in fear.

Anyway the reason I don't listin to the bible is not becuase of christainty's recruitment methods it's becuase I don't beleive its the word of god. I belive maybe orginaly it was a book for christians to learn from the famous religous people from the past whos word may not be gods but a wise one to listin to remain holy. Aswell as to learn from Jesus for whatever he says is the word of god. However I do not beleive the bible is what jesus or god intended it to be. Its been manipulated throughout history benifit the rulers of past so that their people remain obedient etc.

I also don't belive its the word of god becuase I belive god is the purest of forms how can he be when he does such things written in the bible and condems people for certain things which in my eyes is not wrong (e.g. homosexually). Yes you can say I just don't understand why it is wrong. But eitherway I don't belive that its right so how am I soposed to beleive that its the word of god the purest of things when I defnitly don't belive people should not be considered to be commiting sin for being gay.

This is why I cant folow the bible although admidilty it has some great "guidlines" on how to live a good life which I can take as advice as not only could that be somthing hich jesus did say but either way its still good advice.

[redwurd]

"christianity is not a religion, its a relationship with jesus christ. and it does prove evolution wrong."

From a quick web search the definition of Christianity is:

Christianity is a monotheistic religion whose adherents believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God and their savior. Christianity developed out of a sect of Judaism that believed Jesus was the messiah prophesied in the Old Testament. The religion based on the teachings of Jesus.
The Greek word christianos - meaning 'follower of Christ" comes from christos - meaning "anointed one".

Religion: belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny. Any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief - the Christian religion. The attitude & feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers.

Therefore Christianity is a religion.

Please enlighten as to how a relationship with Jesus Christ (a man who has been dead, or at least not on earth, these past 2000 years or so) proves evolution is wrong.

[Taco]

''From the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools. '' Romans 20-22

''The first effect of not believing in God is to believe in anything''

The big bang notion that the universe made itself from nothing without any cause defies the most basic principle of science and logic: something that has a beginning has a sufficient cause.
Many have tried to refute the evidence for the resurrection and ended up following Christ.

Christian faith involves evidence; it is not blind faith. God endowed us with brains and provided evidence for us to see and believe. Please, open your eyes as well as your mind and stop neglecting what is evident. The evidence is everywhere you look. I need not post it here.

[King of the Pink Mushrooms]

As I say im christian how can you expect people to respect your belives when you try to make a mockery of theirs.

As I say the big bang if there was no god involved would most likly made from another universe where are laws of physics do not apply. Therefore we can't make sense of that universe so cant rule out the universe which made the big bang not needing a god to exist.

As I say I belive in god but I also respect the opions of others, and understand theres equal chance that there beleif is right (considering everything to do do we beleif is speculation no one can make any real reason with it).

[Taco]

If you were to actually speculate then the words ''then there is equal chance of each belief being right'' would be far from you.