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Post by BulgarianMenace on Sept 22, 2010 14:25:53 GMT -5
I don't understand - how is it "relatively easier" to kill someone with 1 shockwave and 3-4 lightnings as opposed to 1 shockwave and 1 lightning?
The hero archer, on the other hand, doesn't have to do that much different from a regular archer in terms of number of attacks. 2 headshots still gets the job done. One headshot one fire arrow. One fire arrow one close up multi. One fire headshot. One multi that crits. Notice what's the same about all of those methods? They could be describing EITHER the hero archer or regular archer in the archer vs mage matchup.
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Post by Joppi on Sept 22, 2010 14:28:50 GMT -5
It's objectively true that the hero archer can withstand more damage (he is not killed, for example, by 1 x groundslam followed by 1 x lightning) but relatively it's easier for a hero mage to kill an archer. You're confusing total health with ease of winning combo execution. Total health is not the single factor determining success. Wait. what? It's not easier for a hero mage to kill a hero archer at all. A normal mage has to shock-wave to lightning, an unavoidable combo that takes two attacks and roughly 3 seconds to happen, most of which the archer cannot retaliate due to being knocked over. A hero mage has to string together a shockwave and then like 4 lightnings (dunno the exact amount) to kill the hero archer. For most of this time, the archer is standing upright and is in prime position to let out a multishot that will likely do an incredible amount of damage to the close-range mage. In addition, the archer can shoot a fire arrow and escape the mage completely, forcing him to pursue and potentially be stopped by any other member of the enemy team. Yes, TDM archers can in most cases kill more quickly than a Hero archer can, but that's not the case anyone is trying to make. The Hero archer has most of the killing power that his TDM counterpart does, with Fire Arrows still being insanely strong, and the multishots reduced strength being offset by its increased numbers and chance of headshotting. However, the Hero archer lacks the primary weakness of the TDM archer, in that he's relatively much harder to kill. While the normal archer can be killed by most classes in a 2-hit combo that's unavoidable once the first hit lands, the Hero archer can withstand a ton of punishment from almost every class. Like BM said, while the Archer's killing power remains close to its normal version, all the other classes suffer significantly lower relative damage on all their attacks. So, basically you have a class that's capable of a similar amount of destruction as a normal archer, but lacks the one weakness that makes the archer balanced in the first place. Sounds pretty bad to me.
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Post by Joppi on Sept 22, 2010 14:29:39 GMT -5
wtf how did 6 posts show up while I was typing that
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Sept 22, 2010 14:33:48 GMT -5
Really? And, pray tell, how you propose that the mage set up their melee move in a 1v1? Are you just assuming the archer will simply walk into it? Using melee in a 1v1 against an archer is one of the worst moves you could do.
Quite the contrary. In regular TDM the mage mostly has to just worry about a single multi. Once that's gone/avoided usually the mage can go to town on the archer. Meanwhile in htdm the mage has to deal with at least 2-3 multis if not more, in addition to the still really damaging moves the archer continues to have in hero.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Sept 22, 2010 14:34:38 GMT -5
Except that quick gettup does nothing to counter multishot.
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Post by Onde Aander on Sept 22, 2010 14:54:19 GMT -5
I don't use any set combo per se. It all depends on the situation (e.g. how much fire energy you have, if you have your axe, etc, etc). Generally I would go with an axe first and if you time the regular light attack on gettup the gandalf won't be able to heal or shockwave, leaving you to do whatever combo you want/can. If you don't have enough energy to finish him right there I would probably just let him fall after a light special and repeat the process with the light attack to stun him on gettup. However, you all have to remember that all hero mages only have 2 times the health of a normal mage - which is the same as the health of one regular warrior. That's really not that much if you think about it. And considering that mages can't block, if you do get that first axe in and you don't mess up they will be dead. The only problem is that they still have enough health that killing them by the above method takes SOME time at least, and it works fine if they are alone but if they have help THEN it becomes really hard. But I thought we were talking about 1v1... I thought the light attack on get-up trick was lost to ps3 warriors, but I guess it's not . Yeah that sounds like the sort of thing I usually do. But I don't recall that it works out very often. Usually either a teammate helps you out, or one of Gandalf's teammates screws up your combo, or you make a small mistake or end up with the camera facing the wrong way, and you're dead. And a smart Gandalf isn't going to let you get anywhere near him. You have to survive the approach before you can dream of starting a combo. Fighting him 1v1 isn't much better, because he can focus all his attacks on you, and you have no hope of catching him off-guard and out of specials. Fighting him at all sucks and I think we've all taken him out "here and there" but I still think anyone who makes it sound "easy" is just talking BS. You wouldn't all be bragging about it if you didn't agree that it's hard to do. I still dare anyone to take on Swami Chuckles as Gandalf 1v1 (yes, Swami, I just volunteered you.)
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Sept 22, 2010 14:58:55 GMT -5
Except your "above" was an imaginary scenario that 9/10 times would not work. But nice imagination you got there, real wild. perhaps the fault lies with you. Practice makes perfect
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Post by Mithrand!r on Sept 22, 2010 15:01:10 GMT -5
Well, i have to say that for me archer in htdm is really much easier to control/kill opponents than normal archer, to be honest, i basically only play archer in htdm because with normal i really suck, about killing mage i think its easy u just put him down with fire (its not that hard to get close to him, if he does the staff blast u just go some steps back then u shoot it) then, when he is ready go up, u do a close multi and he almost dies instantainly.~ What about if we all shut up, and go to play to put it in practice XD ?
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Sept 22, 2010 15:04:33 GMT -5
we were probably doing it well before you xbox warriors were. Broly found it out within weeks of starting playing warrior.
But yeah I have noticed you xbox warriors having much more trouble actually doing it consistently than the ps3 warriors who came to pc, so I can understand why you think its so hard to take down a hero mage with a regular warrior.
Taking down a hero mage is just as easy as taking town a regular mage with two exceptions - more health means there is less room for error on the warrior's part (although like I said if they get the knock down it is on the warrior's sword - if he doesn't mess up he will kill every time), and the increased lightning range which makes it harder to approach. Shockwave and firewall are still easy to avoid.
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Post by royaltyisbeleg on Sept 22, 2010 15:49:29 GMT -5
What about if we all shut up, and go to play to put it in practice XD ? right words and if you don't play shut up some more. Mage >>> archer just for the argument sake htdm or tdm in 1 vs 1, in 8 vs 8 it's the opposite because archers are just going to steal your kills. Note: Regarding mage spam I'm confused because morgoth and gothmog are both so good at warrior, mage spam shouldn't be a problem. Although you guys need 1 mage to heal your warriors and that is the only thing you need. Get a tlf to play as a mage or get a really good mage probably me? ;D
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Post by jenaez on Sept 22, 2010 15:56:32 GMT -5
we were probably doing it well before you xbox warriors were. Broly found it out within weeks of starting playing warrior. Im not taking any merit from broly here, but i fell like saying that da_king and me discover that by ourself on the demo so we didnt take that from everyone, again im not taking any merit from broly probably he was the first :S. Anyways i dont see how is harder kill a mage in HTDM with an archer than in other modes. In HTDM you still kill the mage in two hit but now he kill you with 8 , and if he fell balsy enought to get closer with the shield up, the multishot at that distance have great chances of killing it, and the best part is that you can hit him with the poison arrow even with the shield up making everything easier. I remember more than one time killing two gandalf at once with the zoomed multishot (or shotgun in the xbox) and if one of then survived i just shotted a fire arrow without aiming close to him and the work. That take 2 sec, the same amout of time a gandalf take to put down their shield and use the staff slam, and even if he use it before you entering the shield you can blow his head off with the multishot without getting touched
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Post by straightcash5 on Sept 22, 2010 16:06:23 GMT -5
hmm, i think your all putting to much stock into rather or not the multi-shot makes hero archers more or less powerful. first off who cares? a full archer vs mage 1v1 hardly ever happens in a 8v8. plus surroundings make a big difference with what the archer can or can not do. surely a smart archer is not goin to let a mage get close enough to do damage to him and if the mage does, 9/10 times there is goin to be team mates around to help.
but back to the multi-shot. in full servers in htdm you shouldn't be worried about killing opponents at full health with a zoomed multi. you should be using them when their health is partialy gone then use it, and you'll rack up 1 or 2 kills almost always from it.
you can definitely rack up just as many kills in htdm as you can in normal tdm. plus the class that is most played in htdm is archer, so you can rack up 1 shot kills with the fire arrow on them. if you ask me it's not harder at all
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Sept 22, 2010 16:35:26 GMT -5
I don't actually know who found it out first. Could be broly, could be someone else. I just mentioned him because I remember talking to him about it back when he first started using it.
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Post by Onde Aander on Sept 22, 2010 21:32:14 GMT -5
we were probably doing it well before you xbox warriors were. Broly found it out within weeks of starting playing warrior. But yeah I have noticed you xbox warriors having much more trouble actually doing it consistently than the ps3 warriors who came to pc, so I can understand why you think its so hard to take down a hero mage with a regular warrior. I clearly remember trying to demonstrate/explain it to Shadow-Badger (and a few other names - don't remember who else) on ps3 and he had never heard of it. Well kept secret? A lot of people will have discovered it independently. I wasn't one of them. I first picked it up from Vhoscythe and became convinced of its use by H3nry. Lol again you say it's easy, but I'd like to see how consistent you are with it against a GOOD mage. You only get a small window. I spent time on each system just practicing the timing. Even so, I probably get it 50-50 under pressure. Open challenge for anyone to do better. I don't want to hear more bragging, I want to see you in action. All the talk of killing Gandalf 1v1, getting 90% hit-miss ratio as archer, catching mages with unbreakable combos every time... next thing you're going to tell me you can dodge the lightning and shockwave every time. BUT I'm just not seeing it in games. I want to see it before my eyes or on a video, otherwise shut it, folks. Invitation's open.
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Post by Onde Aander on Sept 22, 2010 21:38:02 GMT -5
P.S. Broly is the only warrior I ever saw use it on PS3. I can only think of at most 10 warriors who use(d) it.
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