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Post by BulgarianMenace on Nov 16, 2009 19:22:03 GMT -5
joppi:
1. you're only assuming close range scenarios. The greatest asset of the archer is they can attack you from any distance.
2. you raped me like, 15-4 or something on isengard. If you had just camped the bridge the whole time you would have won every match we had by a like number, if not 15-0. Why? Because there's nothing the mage can do in that kind of situation.
Here's how it would play out:
Archer in the middle of the bridge. Mage has to approach from either end. Archer has a fire arrow trained on the mages head while the mage creeps up in a sheild. If the mage tries to firewall from distance they eat that fire arrow. If they firewall/shockwave up close they get multishitted 99% of the time. Usually before the firewall/shockwave comes out even.
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Post by iruleworld on Nov 16, 2009 19:41:01 GMT -5
ARCHER all the way , mages are cowards they hide under the sheild + heels themselves..while archers fight face to face like a real man ..lol
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Post by Joppi on Nov 16, 2009 20:01:50 GMT -5
ARCHER all the way , mages are cowards they hide under the sheild + heels themselves..while archers fight face to face like a real man ..lol The irony of this post is staggering Shield. The mage chooses when and where he feels like fighting the archer. One way or another, the archer is fighting at close range. I won because I got the high ground and camped the shit out of you. And are you honestly trying to make me believe that you'd walk onto the bridge 15 times getting killed over and over? No, you'd throw firewalls as close as possible to me until I got impatient and rushed you or I won 1-0 by a timeout.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Nov 16, 2009 20:25:34 GMT -5
In the same way the mage can shield the archer can run away. You know this better than anyone. So the archer can make it a stalemate too if they want, or wait for the mage to get impatient and drop their shield, then catch them.
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Post by Joppi on Nov 16, 2009 20:38:02 GMT -5
So the Archer-Mage match-up is 0:0 because they could both just stall each other indefinitely?
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Nov 16, 2009 20:46:43 GMT -5
yup. But in in a real game situation (8v8) archers can still run but mages can't keep their shields up forever.
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Post by Joppi on Nov 16, 2009 20:49:58 GMT -5
Well, then they're useless while they're running and they'll eventually get killed by someone on the other team.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Nov 16, 2009 22:38:32 GMT -5
yeah, if they're stupid and run into enemies instead of into the loving arms of allies.
not to mention the extreme scoutability of shielded mages.
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Post by Joppi on Nov 16, 2009 22:49:25 GMT -5
The mage could also retreat back to allies if he felt like it. Sure, he wouldn't be quite as safe as the archer, but it'd be something, especially if said ally is an archer.
Also, zoomed archers backing away are just as scoutable as shielded mages.
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Post by straightcash5 on Nov 16, 2009 23:03:52 GMT -5
hmm, if a mage is coming at an archer and has his shield up, and once he gets close you know he is goin to jump as soon as he drops his shield, and if the archer is smart he'll be ready for it and not shoot his fire arrow until the mage lands and if your a good archer you will have a good shot to take him out, if you miss, then i normaly poison and try to run.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Nov 17, 2009 2:33:19 GMT -5
The mage could also retreat back to allies if he felt like it. Sure, he wouldn't be quite as safe as the archer, but it'd be something, especially if said ally is an archer. Also, zoomed archers backing away are just as scoutable as shielded mages. well that's the beauty of the archer isn't it? You can always run away from a mage, but you can't run away from an archer.
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Post by Joppi on Nov 17, 2009 6:29:11 GMT -5
Uh, yeah, you can, you're just slightly less likely to find an ally to deal with the archer.
And it's still far away from proving the archer is better than the mage.
Either way, this line of debate is pointless. Seriously, "well, they could just keep backing up from each other indefinitely". Yeah, they could do that, but NO ONE in any real game, either 1v1 or 8v8, would ever do that. And it definitely doesn't prove who's the better class.
I guess since it's the only thing you could bring up, that you've conceded to the rest of my points?
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Nov 17, 2009 7:18:01 GMT -5
your point was "shield," which in a real game scenario can't stay up, which is how we got in this circle in the first place. Archers are too good because they can attack anyone without the other person being able to retaliate (except for other archers), and because they are capable of dealing massive damage (2 1 hit kill moves, 3 if you want to count headshot poison on other archers, which no other class can boast).
As far as matchups are concerned, I think archers have better matchups against warriors than mages do. As a warrior I would much rather face a mage than an archer because even if I get hit I usually have enough health to be ok and still be able to take out the mage. Plus, I can dance just out of the mages lightning range, and firewall/shockwave are usually pretty easy to avoid. Against an archer if I'm not already sprinting I'm fucked. If I am sprinting I can't get hit by poison or fire (which leads to poison), and both are much harder to avoid than firewall/shockwave. And once I do get close I can't afford to miss with the axe because if I do it might give the archer enough time to recharge their poison/fire if they missed, as well as multishot for damage. Oh, and I can't even dance around the edge of their range because it's limitless.
Against scouts, it's hard to say. On the one hand, archers can kill scouts in one hit with two attacks, plus poison can hit them while their rolling and make life hell for them (try to go invisible while poisoned - lol). Mages have a slightly harder time killing scouts, and lightning can't hit them while they are invisible. Then again, archers are more susceptible to being backstabbed since they have to stand still, though good archers will minimize this by being aware of their surroundings, frequent multishots, and moving often they are still at greater risk than mages, marginally. So let's say they're equal.
They're both even in dittos, and against each other the archer has the advantage; the archer can kill the mage at range while the mage cannot kill the archer, and close up they can both kill each other. Even if you want to say multishot is just a 50:50 proposition, and I don't know how you can say that with the consistency you used it with in our 1v1s on isengard but ok, then they draw at close range and the archer wins at long range (in a real game scenario where the mage can't keep his shield up forever). Sure, the archer can't stay in one spot forever either, but the mage has to move towards the enemy spawn point to reach the enemy to actually be able to hit them, while the archer can stay closer to his own spawn point, further from the enemy and thus less likely to be forced to move (attacked) before the mage is forced to put down his shield.
Oh, and I readily concede that the mage is the best class for conquest. Archer is best for tdm and htdm though. And actually I think scouts are the best for ctr, if by best you're judging based on ability to reach the goal of the mode (in this case, scoring the ring).
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Post by bierslyr1969 on Nov 17, 2009 9:25:26 GMT -5
irule , if really wanna ' man up ' play warrior . they take the hits . the only beneficial attributes of the warrior , in a longer range senario , is the fact he can take the hit. his axe is his only offence to make the fight even close to fair , and his aim must be Very true.
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Post by hanzrimer on Nov 17, 2009 15:54:03 GMT -5
The mage could also retreat back to allies if he felt like it. Sure, he wouldn't be quite as safe as the archer, but it'd be something, especially if said ally is an archer. Also, zoomed archers backing away are just as scoutable as shielded mages. well that's the beauty of the archer isn't it? You can always run away from a mage, but you can't run away from an archer. I've ran away from mages plenty of times just to get zapped by lighting. Also on a side note, i'll gladly fight ANY grima 1vs1 if I could be Gandalf.
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