Mages are cheap

[BulgarianMenace]

Agree/Disagree?

Why?


Personally I don't think they are. The game has advanced a lot and now people have developed strategies with the other classes that make it tough for mages.

Archers have always been able to headshot a mage from far away, but now (finally) archers have realized that a zoomed multishot at close range can one hit kill a mage more than 50% of the time.

Warriors have mastered the art of the axe to fire attacks without allowing the mage to get up, guaranteeing death. They've also figured out that they can avoid almost all of the damage from the firewall while still getting fire energy by sidestepping out of it. I even see warriors timing the dodge to avoid the shockwave, and if they master that the mage is toast.

Scouts still have a hard time, but arguably they have an equally or harder time against archers. At least against mages going invisible makes you invincible to lightning, and so you can run away usually. Arrows can still hit you when you are invisible.


The mage just isn't dominant anymore, imo.

[BURNZILLA47]

I don't think they are cheap for the same reasons BM just outlined. I and other warriors have gotten to the point where we can kill the average mage in just a few seconds so they don't seem as cheap to me anymore. Mages are overpowered compared to other classes. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. I say this because all their attacks are devastating and they can heal fully. However, this has caused the other classes to find ways to work around this so if you pick a mage in the hopes of having an overpowered advantage, you may be barking up the wrong Ent.

[srini]

The thing is, all the above are for players who are already quite experienced in this game. When I first started this game, I couldn't headshot for my life. My warrior is STILL an embarrassment. Also, when I started playing this game, I couldn't backstab for nuts. So, I took the easier path of mage. Mage is much easier because you have like a sort of half auto aim on your lightning, the firewall is crazy powerful, and you can heal fully. So, IMO, the mage isn't cheap when its compared to decent other class players. But if a new mage faced off against a new warrior/archer/scout, the mage would win.

However, all of this changes when in HTDM. Quite frankly, the mage is similar to other classes in terms of power. Gandalf is easily taken down with three arrows. Same for other hero mages. Infact, the underpowered class is warrior hero. By the time you get halfway to the enemy camp, you are poisoned, shot to the ground, firewalled, bombed and many attempts at your life are taken.

[UntowThet]

Hmm I'm a little hum har with mages. They aren't necessarily cheap but they are a lot easier to use than most of the classes. That being said, if you can't use one strategically then you're easy kill for the rest of the classes.

Also I agree that people have got better with time so are able to avoid or kill a mage. I know I've killed you BM lots of times but a few months ago, that wouldn't have been the case cos I was a noob with archer and other classes.

It's only when people mage rape in HTDM that I get annoyed. Gandalf's firewall has a bigger range and burns for longer. That being said however, I have managed to defend myself from a full team of Gandalfs through cheap shots and a lot of running.

[srini]

At Untow.

The problem with a whole team of Gandalf is not when they're all separated and running around. It's when they storm your spawn point, all together, that I get all pissed off. In Minas morgul, if you're outnumbered and you camp is stormed, I usually get max 3 kills with Lurtz before being taken out by Gandalf. A single Gandalf is usually easy kill for my archer.

[cjcjcj321]

if mages arent all in a group personnaly i dont like to stay in groups but if i have 2 it will be because the other team is. Have yall notised that wen there is a mage hero regular mages sit there and kiss-up 2 him.

[starscreamrobot]

Nah, mages aren't cheap.

As has been said, they have some advantages against other classes, but EVERY class has some kind of advantage. There's plenty of ways to work around everything they have that, at this point, are common knowledge, because so many people play the mage. Their popularity was ultimately their undoing as the 'ultimate class.'

They can be FRUSTRATING, sure, but I wouldn't call that cheap. Yes, at the time it seems lame when you're fighting against a mage you would have killed four times over by now if he couldn't heal, but ultimately it's no one's fault but your own you didn't finish the job on time. Their health is low enough every other class has a pretty easy way to kill them in a few hits.

I'm still working on trying to find the exact range of the lightning for playing against the better mages who the usual tricks don't often work on.

If I had to call one class 'cheap' it would be an archer ( but I'm not going to ). A good mage still has to get within range where I can attack him too to do what he has to do, a good archer can hide in one spot where I can't see him and either kill me in one hit or attack me with absolutely no way for me to defend against it or retaliate. Granted, this is just one of the foibles of the class I play.

Still, I would rather fight even a bad mage who plays with a 'cheap' style than against a bad archer sitting somewhere and eventually getting the inevitable lucky shot.

But overall, mages are nothing. The easiest way to tell how 'cheap' something is is to put it in the hands of a bad or good player and see if they're signifigantly better with it. Bad mages anyone can eat for breakfast, and most of the best mages are still proficient with at least one other class.

[demonstouch]

Me and Broly have taken out several teams of Gandolf. I prefer it.

All the char are tough, I do feel scout are way overpowered with a backstab. IT would be cool to give the scout more power, and make the back stab counterable. It would be interesting.

[thebountyhunter]

mages arent cheap if you use them well, but i think the firewall is WAY to powerful and life draining, even more than a headshot poison arrow from an archer. i think warriors are at a disadvantage when it comes to the other classes because they have no attacks that take away more than half a life. mages are to equipped to deal with other classes in comparison to them. they have shockwave for scouts, lightning for all classes, shield for archers, and firewall for warriors.

cheap? no
overpowered ? yes

[Joppi]

I think the way you're looking at it is a bit too narrow to properly address the advantages of the mage. Yeah, in 1v1 the mage isn't completely over-powered. He can be countered fairly easily by warriors since he has such low health. I disagree with your archer section, though. The multi-shit is nowhere near 50% accurate, except maybe in a 1v1 match (which I doubt even then). In a full-on battle, the arrows go all over the place and multi-shit is a rather rare treat. The only time a multi-shit is even close to reliable is at point-blank range, but even that misses sometimes.

However, the strength of the mage isn't in 1v1. He's not suited for that type of battle, and, really, the only class that is is the warrior. The mage truly shines in group scenarios, where his ability to provide support while still pumping out gratuitous amounts of damage is just over-powering.

Now, I'm not going to say he's "cheap" (lol scrubs), but the mage is definitely the overall strongest class in the game, only losing out in one mode to archer (TDM). Everywhere else, the mage is a very dominant force.

First off, the mage is simply an advantage wall. He has advantages out the ass, with very few disadvantages to balance them. His only real disadvantages are his low health (same as the archer), his low run speed (same as the archer), his inability to block (like the archer) and that some of his attacks have a bit of lag, leaving him vulnerable (nowhere near as vulnerable as a warrior or scout, though, and one of his lag-attacks has a cancel that not only makes him quick to attack, but also a bitch to hit). Other than that, pretty much everything about the mage is an advantage.

The mage's support function is unrivaled in its ability to, well, support. He can deploy a huge shield forever that, in a normal 8v8 match, completely shuts down the archer class (sure, the archer can punish it in 1v1, but in a larger battle, he can't be sitting there waiting for the mage to be coming out). He has a heal that can fully heal him and all those around him THREE FUCKING TIMES. These things alone are more than any other class can say (mainly because the other classes can't say anything).

On the offensive, the mage is only rivaled by a good archer in his ability to get kills. The mage's three main attacks also happen to be three of the strongest attacks in the game. The lightning knocks of 40% of an enemy mage or archer's life, and has a very quick refire rate due to jump-canceling. The shockwave does massive amounts of damage to everyone, as well as knocking them down. Additionally, the mage cannot be knocked down during the shockwave animation, making it perfect for getting out of combos or avoiding a fire arrow to the feet. The firewall is, against multiple enemies, the attack capable of generating the most damage in one press. Individually, the fire arrow headshot does more (unless the firewall hits directly), but the firewall spreads the love to anyone remotely near where it lands. It slows down its victims and does enormous amounts of damage even if they only tap the edge of it.

And don't get me started on groups of mages. There is nothing worse in this game than a group of 3-4 mages, in my opinion (except a group of 8, fucking Mines of Moria).

So, yeah, individually, the mage can be countered, but his presence in a group makes that group infinitely more powerful. While all the other classes are locked in one role (kill the enemies far away, kill the enemies that are close up, try to go invisible to capture some back command post), the mage can freely choose between many roles, and can be powerful in all of them. His killing power is second only to archers, and his support power is second to none. Hell, he can do them both at the same time.

Yeah, the mage isn't as "broken" as he once seemed in all situations, but in a normal group battle, he's still overpowered.

(imo)

[srini]

Joppi has closed the topic with his insightful post.

[BulgarianMenace]

Jun 30, 2009 9:42:17 GMT -5 Joppi said:

The mage's support function is unrivaled in its ability to, well, support. He can deploy a huge shield forever that, in a normal 8v8 match, completely shuts down the archer class (sure, the archer can punish it in 1v1, but in a larger battle, he can't be sitting there waiting for the mage to be coming out).

conversely, in an 8v8 a mage cannot simply sit in hit shield all day. Doing so invites scouts, but more than that, in an 8v8 he will be forced to drop his shield by other people approaching.

He has a heal that can fully heal him and all those around him THREE FUCKING TIMES. These things alone are more than any other class can say (mainly because the other classes can't say anything).

Yeah, and that's certainly important as a support function.

But as an individual function it's rather necessary considering the health of the mage. Now you did note that archers have the same health, but unlike mages they never have to confront the enemy and can attack while their target has no way of attacking them back, an ability which no other class in the game has.

Mages also don't have the nice advantage of having all of their special attacks recharge if they get hit by an axe or satchel bomb, which further necessitates their need to be able to heal to survive. Basically with the archer it's like, oh, well, I just hit you with all my special attacks, and yeah you hit me with the axe but if you don't kill me I've got all my special attacks back so you'll be pretty much dead. With the mage it's if you don't kill me I'll heal, and then I'll still possibly die because I have shit health and my specials don't recharge that fast.

On the offensive, the mage is only rivaled by a good archer in his ability to get kills. The mage's three main attacks also happen to be three of the strongest attacks in the game.

every class has attacks which are stronger than the mage's attacks so you can't really say that the mage has 3 of the strongest attacks in the game.

Archer, of course, headshots, multishot.

Warrior, both medium and heavy specials do more damage than shockwave. Crit axe does more damage than lightning.

Scout has backstab, and direct hit satchel bomb also does more damage than lightning.

Firewall arguably is more damaging, but only archers and mages are really vulnerable to it (warriors and scouts can roll/sidestep out of it with minimal damage).

Now, I'm not saying that the things I listed for the other classes are anywhere near as easy as the mage's attacks, but if you want to talk about damage the mage is not ahead of any other class.

And not counting kill stealing, the mage cannot "rival" the archer in his ability to get kills. The archer does tremendous damage from unlimited range, giving him unrivaled access to targets and ability to kill them. While a mage has to find and walk a distance to reach his next target, all an archer has to do is turn around a little.

So, yeah, individually, the mage can be countered, but his presence in a group makes that group infinitely more powerful. While all the other classes are locked in one role (kill the enemies far away, kill the enemies that are close up, try to go invisible to capture some back command post), the mage can freely choose between many roles, and can be powerful in all of them. His killing power is second only to archers, and his support power is second to none. Hell, he can do them both at the same time.

I think without question the mage is the most versatile class in the game. Does that make him overpowered or whatever other synonym you want to use to avoid saying cheap, I don't think so.

Every team needs mages for that support function, but in terms of killing ability he is second or possibly third behind the warrior. The mage just appears to be a more proficient killer than the warrior because of his aptitude for stealing kills. However, unless they're sneaking up on someone, I would say on average it takes longer for a mage to kill someone than a warrior.


Now if we actually examine that support function, obviously the two biggest things are the heal and the shield.

The shield is great to protect your teammates from archers and other mages, but that's only half the classes. The shield isn't without disadvantages; you can't block (protect from the other two classes), you can't attack or really move, and your specials don't recharge. Overall I would say it's a pretty balanced ability.

The heal is incredibly important because there's really not many other ways for people to get health, so you need mages for that. But as I explained for the mage individually it's balanced out by the low health of the mage. Indispensable as a team option, but it's usefulness for the team doesn't make the mage individually better.

[jonathan1515]

Although the mage may not be totally overpowered I still think they have a slight advantage in TDM, Hero is way different.

First the archer's multishot is hard to acctually get an instant kill if your facing a good mage who's jumping around like crazy. Also it only takes three lightnings for a mage to kill an archer, that's not that much time to get the mage. Although from far away an archer can take out a mage with a simple head shot.

Warriors do stand a good chance against a mage, as long as they know what they're doing it will be a close fight between the two. And if the mage doesn't see the warrior coming the mage is definitly going to get killed easily.

Scouts are pretty easy for mages, as long as you see them and don't stand on the grounf the whole time you can just firewall them and lightning them and if they get to close shockwave them.

The mage is good, and in order for your team to win you'll definitly want a couple mages in order to shield, and heal teamates.

In HTDM it's very different. I'd say the archer has the advantage as its 5 lightnings to kill a mage. Also, the scout is better as they have alot more health and have a much better chance of getting away, plus some of the special attacks are pretty decent, (wormtongues bombs). Mages aren't as strong as well as warrior, you can't just go up to somebody and kill them with a couple speciials with a warrior. It takes much more work and often people will steal your kills.

[hanzrimer]

I'm actually starting to think the hero archers are just as good as mages if not better, however I still think the normal mages are best. IE easiest to use.

[Joppi]

conversely, in an 8v8 a mage cannot simply sit in hit shield all day. Doing so invites scouts, but more than that, in an 8v8 he will be forced to drop his shield by other people approaching.

In 8v1, maybe. In 8v8, the mage has teammates, so he doesn't need to drop his shield and engage every threat that comes by. The idea of what you quoted was that the mage can support his team, not himself. The shield has disadvantages, yes, but they are disadvantages that can be negated by having teammates. Scouts shouldn't be able to sneak up on a shielding mage if they are people keeping their eyes out for scouts.

But as an individual function it's rather necessary considering the health of the mage. Now you did note that archers have the same health, but unlike mages they never have to confront the enemy and can attack while their target has no way of attacking them back, an ability which no other class in the game has.

Well, mages still stay a healthy lightning distance away from enemies, which is usually enough to be relatively safe.

Mages also don't have the nice advantage of having all of their special attacks recharge if they get hit by an axe or satchel bomb, which further necessitates their need to be able to heal to survive. Basically with the archer it's like, oh, well, I just hit you with all my special attacks, and yeah you hit me with the axe but if you don't kill me I've got all my special attacks back so you'll be pretty much dead. With the mage it's if you don't kill me I'll heal, and then I'll still possibly die because I have shit health and my specials don't recharge that fast.

How much do axes recharge your specials? I imagine it's a lot, considering the archer can nearly go from empty to full (it doesn't actually recharge them fully if they're completely empty, but they are really close to full). I'm pretty sure at least heal recharges a lot when hit by an axe.

Besides, there's a big difference between the specials of the mage and the specials of the archer. In close combat, the archer basically needs his special arrows to function, whereas the mage only needs his lightning to be a competent fighting force.

every class has attacks which are stronger than the mage's attacks so you can't really say that the mage has 3 of the strongest attacks in the game.

Archer, of course, headshots, multishot.

Obviously (except for firewall).

Warrior, both medium and heavy specials do more damage than shockwave. Crit axe does more damage than lightning.

I thought triangle and circle did about the same as a shockwave, or maybe about 10% more to mage/archer health, I dunno.

Lightning still out-damages all of the warrior's attacks other than the ones mentioned.

Regardless, the warrior has to be smack in the face of the enemy to hit them, and he has to deal with this game's retarded hitboxes/detection that make it possible to get out of a combo most of the time. The only time a mage has to be relatively close to the enemy is when he wants to shockwave, and he happens to be safe from knockdown while he's doing it.

Scout has backstab, and direct hit satchel bomb also does more damage than lightning.

To be honest, I don't really count the backstab as damage.

The scout has one attack that out-damages the weakest of the mage's staples, plus it happens to be probably the hardest thing to hit with in the game.

Firewall arguably is more damaging, but only archers and mages are really vulnerable to it (warriors and scouts can roll/sidestep out of it with minimal damage).

Direct hits still do hella damage to warriors and scouts, which will also hit them with the first pulse, and probably a second pulse before they get out.

But, regardless of how people can get out of it, the firewall is the single attack capable of the most green-bar-diminishing to the other team.

Now, I'm not saying that the things I listed for the other classes are anywhere near as easy as the mage's attacks, but if you want to talk about damage the mage is not ahead of any other class.

Each of the classes has one of two attacks that out-damage one or two of the mage's attacks, whereas all of the mages attacks do significant amounts of damage. If we're going to say that having a few attacks stronger than lightning or shockwave makes them stronger classes, then the firewall trumps everything and the mage is the strongest class again.

And not counting kill stealing, the mage cannot "rival" the archer in his ability to get kills. The archer does tremendous damage from unlimited range, giving him unrivaled access to targets and ability to kill them. While a mage has to find and walk a distance to reach his next target, all an archer has to do is turn around a little.

The archer also has to deal with shields that shut him down from long range, and he has to do a considerable amount of aiming for each shot, whereas the mage has auto-aim for his lightning.

The archer is definitely the king of killing, but he isn't so far ahead of the mage that he is unrivaled.

I think without question the mage is the most versatile class in the game. Does that make him overpowered or whatever other synonym you want to use to avoid saying cheap, I don't think so.

First off, cheap implies that something is unfair. I don't think the mage is unfair, just that he has a lot more advantages than all the other classes.

But, yeah, in a game that requires a lot of versatility to adapt to all the situations one can run into, the mage being the most versatile class (while the other classes have fairly little versatility), does make him overpowered in my opinion.

Every team needs mages for that support function, but in terms of killing ability he is second or possibly third behind the warrior. The mage just appears to be a more proficient killer than the warrior because of his aptitude for stealing kills. However, unless they're sneaking up on someone, I would say on average it takes longer for a mage to kill someone than a warrior.

To the bold, I'd like to see someone make that argument, it sounds hilarious.

It takes longer for a mage to kill another mage than a warrior, due to the fact that warriors can combo the mage, which prevents healing, but as far as the other classes go, the mage can generate far more damage in less time. Add on the fact that the warrior has to be smack in the face of the enemy he wants to kill, the mage has an pretty big edge.

The shield is great to protect your teammates from archers and other mages, but that's only half the classes. The shield isn't without disadvantages; you can't block (protect from the other two classes), you can't attack or really move, and your specials don't recharge. Overall I would say it's a pretty balanced ability.

As a personal defensive device, the shield is a perfectly balanced thing. However, as a group support device, the shield is incredibly powerful. All its disadvantages can be made insignificant by strong team support.

The heal is incredibly important because there's really not many other ways for people to get health, so you need mages for that. But as I explained for the mage individually it's balanced out by the low health of the mage. Indispensable as a team option, but it's usefulness for the team doesn't make the mage individually better.

I agree, as an individual healing factor, it is balanced by the mage's health. However, yes, it does make the mage individually better, because he is the only one that can do it. Nobody else can support their team like the mage can, which is a huge thing going for the mage.

The point is, the mage is the most powerful support class by a huge margin, still manages to be a very powerful fightning class (second in the game, imo, under archer, over warrior), and happens to be the class that can adapt to almost any situation. Combined, this makes a class that I believe to be the strongest in the game by a healthy margin.