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Post by BulgarianMenace on Aug 4, 2009 16:54:33 GMT -5
well, you launched into this theme when I found myself confused by your disbelief (?) in evolution, which to be quite honest is more than a tad absurd in the face of significant evidence supporting it. I mean, it seemed to me like you were justifying your disbelief by trying to discredit the scientific evidence through a consipracy theory of sorts. Don't get me wrong, I am partial to conspiracy theories myself, as should be clear by now from my posts, but I'm not one to deny facts and logic when they're staring me in the face. The theory of evolution may not be perfect, and is still being refined, but I am more apt to believe it than to believe that it is all an imaginary construct intended to further subjugate people.
Also, I kindly ask that you don't make assuptions about my personal background. I don't need to share with you my life story, but suffice to say I've lived in "the city" as well (although what part is perhaps more relevant, but I've lived in several different parts). People may want solutions, but not the kind you're suggesting ("One government, one religion, one currency"). They all are still stuck in a mental state in which they differentiate themselves from others based on superficial differences, and they want solutions for their particular group, but remain in conflict in many ways, all of which serves the purposes of those in power.
Anyway, it seems we're on the same page regarding a good number of things, and are arguing more about the details. One of the more major differences in our views (I felt) was the science/evolution thing, which is why I continued to discuss that although the focus of the conversation had since shifted away from that.
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Post by starscreamrobot on Aug 4, 2009 17:02:25 GMT -5
You're right, but I consider the line between business and government to be so direct, that I'm refering to them as the same entity.
The government being controlled by the corporate world isn't some insidious, Emperor Palpatine type of scheme. Those in political power know all about it, allow it to happen, embrace it willingly, and likely only rose to power because of that in the first place. Business is Government is Media.
However, I think it's pretty much impossible to create an artificial conflict that isn't going to spiral out of control into something more intense and potentially 'dangerous.' Look at the 'artificial' conflicts of the day, from the sports-like political arena where you are forced to essentially root for your favorite team regardless of the fact they are the exact same in every way, to all of the issues Joppi mentioned in his first post, have people literally armed and willing to fight and die.
People will bomb abortion clinics, stand at the border with guns, arm themselves against a borderline non-existant terrorist "threat," assault or even kill people of different races, religions, or sexual orientations, and a slew of other overreactions to even noteworthy problems.
In a unified world government, things like these WOULD become the top issues, and people would react to them just as violently and create the potential for revolution. That's why they feel they have to be eliminated to maintain complacency.
I'm not even saying it would actually be possible to eliminate the natural fighting instincts of a human being, but it seems to me that that's the idea, and that they're doing a 'good' job of trying.
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Post by Strider on Aug 4, 2009 17:02:36 GMT -5
Calling it abusrd to question Evolution is as abusrd as buying into it. That's my opinion. I have nothing more to say other than: I never said Evolution and it's contemporary theories are unfounded or incorrect.
Also, I never assumed anything about you. I asked a few questions. And I only asked them because (as it came off) you think that are some people out there who aren't looking for help or answers or solutions. As it may come to pass, most of the population will forced into servitude...for lack of a way "out".
And you can argue...the most of us already are indentured servants.
No offense was meant.
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Post by jonathan1515 on Aug 4, 2009 17:18:23 GMT -5
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Aug 4, 2009 17:22:14 GMT -5
Starscream - "Business is Government is Media." While that's an interesting way to think about it, I think it is more accurate to say that the government is an arm of the wealthy (business). Media, on the other hand, has alreay become a business itself, though it still serves the needs of the same men who control the government, which is to say, the men who control the flow of money. As to what I referred to as artificial conflicts. The reason that they would want to keep such things going, and they actively promote them, is because it distracts people. Sure they may become violent, but they would be fighting amongst themselves, which is great for those in power. There will never be a revolution because people are angry about gay marriage, or some other such nonconsequential issue. It's only when something affects everyone negatively that those differences instilled in us can be overcome and ignored and people can actually become united and rise up. A revolution cannot be successful without the support of the people, for which they must be united, so by creating conflicts over insignificant things those in power keep people divided and insure that they will not be able to rise up (or at leas they make it much more difficult and require something really big). Calling it abusrd to question Evolution is as abusrd as buying into it. This I don't understand. How is "buying into" the large body of evidence and logic backing evolution more absurd than questioning it based on...what exactly? There's nothing wrong with questioning things. Science is all about constantly questioning things. But with reason. If you have new evidence that suggests that perhaps the theory of evolution is flawed then please share it. As it may come to pass, most of the population will forced into servitude...for lack of a way "out". And you can argue...the most of us already are indentured servants. That's true. The system is set up so that we are promted to go into debt and then literally need the job we have, which makes us more obedient workers, and which also occupies our thoughts and keeps us tired mentally and physically and less able to do anything. Then there's all the ways our minds are influenced by the media that we've been discussing.
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Post by Strider on Aug 4, 2009 21:37:18 GMT -5
Calling it abusrd to question Evolution is as abusrd as buying into it. This I don't understand. How is "buying into" the large body of evidence and logic backing evolution more absurd than questioning it based on...what exactly? There's nothing wrong with questioning things. Science is all about constantly questioning things. But with reason. If you have new evidence that suggests that perhaps the theory of evolution is flawed then please share it. And...that's exactly what I'm doing. Questioning the research by scientists that could BY ALL MEANS...be bought and paid for by the same interests that run every other propaganda machine. I'm not saying it isn't true...I'm just saying that I cannot possibly buy into it. I think that there is more to all of this than just Evolution. Call it absurd...or call it just a "feeling". None of us are right or wrong. I will end this by saying... BILL FUCKING HICKS!!! LOL! CLICK THE F'N LINK! www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q95kX_EP2Nk
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Post by UntowThet on Aug 5, 2009 1:14:32 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt your meaningful discussion but just thought I'd post my views on the core topics. Just before I offer my personal opinion, my views would brand me as a liberal. I strongly disagree with this label as I have conservative views on other issues but that's a whole other debate all together.
Same-sex Marriage/Rights (For/Against/For with reservations, etc) I'm all for same sex marriage. The fact that right wing evangelical Christians have claimed (and successfully in the US) that this to be between a man and a woman is laughable. You need only look at societies before missionaries went on their conversion crusades to see that marriage was not exclusively defined by Christian ideals and in some regions of the world (particularly the Pacific, South America and Africa) marriage had no differentiation regardless of gender.
Marriage isn't defined by one religion and who are we to say that two people can't get married? I mean, love between two souls isn't any different right? I pity anyone who was brought up to believe marriage is between a man and a woman as they would have a rather narrow view of the world as a result of their sheltered upbringing.
Abortion (For/Against/For with Restrictions, etc) I hate the incest argument for abortion; at the end of the day it's a personal choice. I'd rather a woman be able to go into a clinic and get this done then to have to go through the shame of backstreet abortions with a possibility of death. It's a medical procedure as far as I'm concerned and people should have the right to do it. However multiple abortions is another story all together. There are some serious issues for the individual if they're having multiple abortions and that needs to be addressed on a psychological level.
Gun Control (Total/None/Partial, etc) You need only look at what's happening with school shootings to know that there are need for gun controls. The fact the constitution says you have the right to raise arms is irrelevant. The constitution also said that you could own slaves... nuff said.
Religion (Do you have one?/Evolution vs. Creationism/What role should religion play in society and government?, etc) Everyone has the right to believe what they want. I don't subscribe to any of the mainstream beliefs but I'm very spiritual.
I believe religion has no place in government. True democracy is based on varying views, not just one. Most religious views don't represent me so why would I want my governing body to have a Christian (or Islam, Hindu, Buddhism etc for that matter) view on everything? And I hate that people tend to blend religion and morals into one; you don't have to be religious to have morals.
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Post by hanzrimer on Aug 5, 2009 13:42:21 GMT -5
Are we still talking about evolution? Any way, I actually agree with BM pretty much 100%. When it comes to evolution it's funny how people always think that means "we evolved from monkeys". First off it's not just humans evolved, it's everything evolved, even plants. But since we're hung up on humans I'll address that. We didn't evolve from monkeys, or apes per se, we evolved from a COMMON ANCESTOR.aka the missing link. even modern day gorillas are a product of evolution, we didn't directly come from them though. There are so many found extinct homins that are more human then ape, but way more ape then human. I think if anyone doubts we evolved (as every thing else) I think you are ignoring some pretty clear facts. I think people like Ben Stein would have you believe darwin followers are nazi's. Either way, how come people never have a problem with tree frogs evolving or Nile Crocodiles, or what about Giant pacific octopus. I think humans need to get over themselves and realize we're not gods, were just primates out of control.
(I'm not going to touch the government controlling us topic, not my field of interest)
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Post by Strider on Aug 5, 2009 14:09:14 GMT -5
I know that I never said Evolution isn't real. It clearly is.
But I do not think that Evolution is the end all be all; and I don't think it's as cut and dry as some think it is. Evolution may the be the answer to HOW...but not the answer to WHY. That's basically what I was getting at. Can't speak for anyone else...
---
Untow: Yes, the founders were racist, slave owning fucks. But, the Constitution was written as guideline for how things were to work in America; Slavery was a fraction of the bill and that is something that needed to be done away with. Unjust, inhumane slavery is much different than having the right to protect yourself.
Like I mentioned previously: If the military industrial complex, the drugged out public, and the police are running around, abusing their power with guns...then I have every right to own one to protect myself.
It's funny that you mention school shootings...but fail to mention the millions that have died in battle and even at "HOME" due to abuse of guns by the police and the military.
Even...when you look at these school shootings and the backgrounds of these kids...most of them were so doped up on medication that it's no wonder they're acting irrationally. I know that the two kids that carried out the attacks at Columbine were both on heavy medication; as was the kid that who went on that rampage at Virginia Tech.
So, was it the guns that killed or was is it the failed pyschological treatment of those kids?
If they want to abolish guns completely...FINE. I'm all for that. I wish that they would get rid of every gun and mass-murdering weapon on the planet. I just don't see that happening any time soon.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Aug 5, 2009 14:36:35 GMT -5
Unless you're talking about some sort of ambigious higher reason for life type "why," the practical "why" is indeed answered by evolution. Things evolved because conditions changed over time and certain traits were favored more than others and they were passed on by those able to reproduce.
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Post by Strider on Aug 5, 2009 14:41:30 GMT -5
And...if that's what you believe...that's fine. If you believe that is all there is to it...cool.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Aug 5, 2009 14:45:58 GMT -5
what reason do you have for NOT believing that?
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Post by Strider on Aug 5, 2009 14:49:45 GMT -5
What do you not understand?
I said that I believe Evolution is real. It happened. It's still happening.
BUT..........
...I don't think science, logic, and evolution tell the whole story. My personal, spiritual, or otherwise...beliefs are of my own. Consider this my "period" on the whole Evolution discussion.
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Post by BulgarianMenace on Aug 5, 2009 14:57:43 GMT -5
I guess it's just hard for me to understand and I feel like I need logical reasons for things since that's the way I approach things. Sorry if I upset you.
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Post by hanzrimer on Aug 5, 2009 18:16:54 GMT -5
What do you not understand? I said that I believe Evolution is real. It happened. It's still happening. BUT.......... ...I don't think science, logic, and evolution tell the whole story. My personal, spiritual, or otherwise...beliefs are of my own. Consider this my "period" on the whole Evolution discussion. Basically your saying you don't rule out the possibility that a high being of some kind got the ball rolling?
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